16 Valve B202 engine rebuild 2011

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squaab99t
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16 Valve B202 engine rebuild 2011

Postby squaab99t » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:08 pm

After completing a compression test, cylinder 3 was down over 50% of the others. The crank case was also becoming pressurized, blowing oil out the dipstick and PVC. All these symptoms pointed to a bad ring or cracked piston.

Time to tear it down.
Warning, some viewers may find these images disturbing, viewer discretion is advised.

Cylinder 3
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Chatter marks at 11:00
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Piece of ring embedded into the ring groove
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Molten aluminum and polishing the broken ring.

Cylinder 4
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Broken ring and melted piston. Which came first?
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Cylinder 2
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Notice above the top ring the skirt's machine marks have melted to a pitted surface.

My friend Brian who in an engine development engineer had this to share after reviewing the images.
"Looking more closely at the pictures, I'm guessing the top rings are cast iron instead of steel. Also examining the land pictures more closely, it appears the land did not fail in bending, rather the ring broke. This would be expected with cast rings in an application with high peak cylinder pressure. The proximal cause would be fatigue failure due to the ring twisting (toroidally). Steel is much more fatigue resistant, and would be prescribed for the top ring in a heavily pressure charged application or one where heavy detonation is a possibility.

Once the ring breaks, nothing good happens after that. If a piece small enough breaks off, it gets jammed between the groove or land and the bore. This is probably what beat out the 2nd land on piston 3 and scuffed bores 3 and 4. The seal of the top ring is defeated and overall blow-by through the ring pack goes up. Combined with the gouge in piston 4's top land and the scuffed bore, this torches the lands and overheats the crown. That leads to the crown out-growing the bore and mechanical interference between the top land and the bore.

I think piston 2 looks like it was simply overheated or overstrained because I'm not aware of any damage to the rings. That leads to the same land-bore interference seen on piston 4. Note that due to mechanical and thermal stresses, the crown typically distorts to a mushroom shape, and both the top and the second lands tilt down. This would explain why the top of the top land is scuffed and the top of the 2nd land is worn.

If only one piston showed signs of overheating or overpressuring, I'd say to look for a localized detonation problem. But, knowing that this is a highly boosted engine and mention was made of loss of cooling system control, my concern would be overall piston temperature and peak cylinder pressure. Beyond repairing and replacing the damaged parts, my recommendations would be as follows:

1) Switch to a steel top ring.
2) Re-examine the engine after some hard runs to see if there still exists land-bore contact even without overheating.

If there is still contact, the piston design might need to change. The brute force fix would be to increase land-bore clearance of the top land until the contact goes away. This could be done with sandpaper on a lathe. Note that hard tooling will not work due to the likely nonzero ovality of the land. We can talk about details if this step is required.

I have some other ideas beyond manipulating piston-bore clearance, but let's see if the problem persists once you get a durable ring in there and run it hard again.

-Brian"


More to come.

Dennis

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Mezzanine
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Re: 16 Valve B202 engine rebuild 2011

Postby Mezzanine » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:56 am

:-O
Most awesome assessment of engine failure ever. My favorite quote: "Once the ring breaks, nothing good happens after that." That about sums it up. :lol:

Settled on new pistons yet? Are you going to stick with this block?

C
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DrewP
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Re: 16 Valve B202 engine rebuild 2011

Postby DrewP » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:23 am

How many miles were on this engine?

From talking with Dave Kennedy I think they decided the top compression ring was some kind of ductile iron to add to fatigue resistance, they aren't nearly as brittle as a straight iron top ring, but without some metallurgical analysis that's impossible to verify. When he builds engines he likes to use the top compression ring from the OEM SAAB ring pack (from the dealer when he can still get them) and then uses Total Seal 2nd and oil control rings. That's what's in Claude Hutchings' 500+ BHP ice racer motor in the 83a car if I remember correctly, although with forged pistons.

Every C900 engine I have ever seen that failed from (known) detonation rather than overheating always cracked the pistons, down from one of the ring lands and wrapped around the wrist pins, like this:




Image

Image




This engine was detonating from lean running and inscreased boost, cleaned up the exhaust side of the crown from the heat, but when this one cracked the crack did not shear the rings (though it did seize the 1st ring in the land), just blew pressure through the crack down into the crankcase. This engine puffed smoke out the dipstick tube like yours.

Image




I have a set of NOS 1st over Mahle pistons if you are interested to know if the diameters are machined with some ovality to them, I never thought to check but I'd be tempted to say they may not be.
"You can educate ignorance, but you can't fix stupid."

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squaab99t
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Re: 16 Valve B202 engine rebuild 2011

Postby squaab99t » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:30 pm

Mezzanine wrote::-O
Most awesome assessment of engine failure ever. My favorite quote: "Once the ring breaks, nothing good happens after that." That about sums it up. :lol:

Settled on new pistons yet? Are you going to stick with this block?

C


Yes, that comment rocks.
I'll see if the NOS 1 oversize that I have will work since the dish is different. I will cc both and calculate the C/R delta. I'll take this block and a spare to the machineshop and ask their opinion on my options. My spare I think is from a '94 9000, painted red in lieu of gray. Anybody know if there is a difference?

Drew,
The engine had 175k when I did the overhaul. Seven years and 20k later I have this.
Admittedly I did not know what the F, I was doing when I did my first overhaul. Live and learn.
Not really sure if it was the ring failure or the engine management tuning?
We were pretty careful in the engine mapping.
Thanks for the leads on the ring combination and order. I'm going to do some non scientific destructive testing to compare the brittleness/ductility between the top and second rings.
Dennis

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DrewP
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Re: 16 Valve B202 engine rebuild 2011

Postby DrewP » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:01 pm

My pistons are 1st over B202T pistons (with factory rings) if it turns out you don't want to / can't use yours, I can measure the dishes in them if you're interested.

If I cook the pistons in my 900 I will probably just get forged ones and rods to match the next go around (which I would recommend you do too).

Dave has part numbers for Wiseco pistons they use paired with Crower rods meant for a small-block Ford, gotta take a little off the rod journals on the crank, but it moves the wrist pin up and ends up with a longer rod length to get the side loading down some. The last time I talked to Dave he had another set or two on the shelf waiting to go, that's what I rebuilt that engine with. I think it was something like $1100 for rods, bearings, pistons, rings, pins and clips, and they're much lighter than stock.

I have Dave's # if you don't and want to ask him about it.
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Re: 16 Valve B202 engine rebuild 2011

Postby turbo stephan » Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:31 pm

Hey Dennis,

I can see Brian being Kevin's brother. The clarity of his description sounded very familiar to me if you know what I mean ;) .

It's a bummer that the block got scuffed up but under the given circumstances it would have been only luck if nothing would have happened to it. From what I've heard, many people stick with the Mahle pistons. I also like Drew's suggestion with the Wiseco pistons. Would Woessner be another possibility in terms of pistons? I'm pretty sure I have heard somewhere that they have been used in Saab engines as replacements but I can't quite think of where I heard or read it. Anyways you can check here: http://www.woessner-kolben.de/en/home.html

Stephan

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Re: 16 Valve B202 engine rebuild 2011

Postby DrewP » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:30 pm

I believe MapTun custom cars use Wossner pistons, and I think Nick and John Williams here in the States have both messed with them and JE.

I think Dave only used Wiseco because his son's machine shop Lesco that's next door does lots of ordering from Wiseco for their Detroit muscle work and he found something out of the catalogue that basically works, rather than the 4-8 week wait for a batch from Wossner or JE.
"You can educate ignorance, but you can't fix stupid."

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Re: 16 Valve B202 engine rebuild 2011

Postby squaab99t » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:51 pm

DrewP wrote:My pistons are 1st over B202T pistons (with factory rings) if it turns out you don't want to / can't use yours, I can measure the dishes in them if you're interested.

If I cook the pistons in my 900 I will probably just get forged ones and rods to match the next go around (which I would recommend you do too).

Dave has part numbers for Wiseco pistons they use paired with Crower rods meant for a small-block Ford, gotta take a little off the rod journals on the crank, but it moves the wrist pin up and ends up with a longer rod length to get the side loading down some. The last time I talked to Dave he had another set or two on the shelf waiting to go, that's what I rebuilt that engine with. I think it was something like $1100 for rods, bearings, pistons, rings, pins and clips, and they're much lighter than stock.

I have Dave's # if you don't and want to ask him about it.


Thanks Drew for the offer on the OEM pistons and hi pro info that Dave K has put together.
My problem is that this car has a bit of an identity crisis. Started off as a daily driver with some bolt ons. Turned project car with standalone ECU some punch. Now it back to a daily for my wife, 8 month old, and me. I have to keep that in mind as I rebuild this engine.


I'll keep the hi pro stuff for my next project car; '76 EMS. Could you PM Dave's number?

Image
I think these are for a H turbo engine. Anybody ever run these in a B202?
The dish is shallower and smaller in diameter, bumping the C/R.

Thanks folks for the quality suggestions and feedback.

Dennis
Last edited by squaab99t on Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hutch
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Re: 16 Valve B202 engine rebuild 2011

Postby hutch » Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:20 pm

squaab99t wrote:I think these are for a H turbo engine. Anybody ever run these in a B202?
The dish is shallower and smaller in diameter, bumping the C/R.

Thanks folks for the quality suggestions and feedback.

Dennis

I'm a bit confused because aren't all c900's H engines? If you mean pistons out of a T5 engine I'm pretty sure Raul put a set of those (maybe T7) in one of his cars. Getting useful info from him can be... difficult at times but I'm pretty sure he was able to do it. I can't find the thread on it but I'll keep looking around. Search around on here and saablink for some Raul gems, heres one thread I found on the subject. Has a guy from Seattle so maybe you guys know him anyway:
http://www.saablink.net/forum/performan ... /50654.htm
ImageImage
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I'd be very interested to know how it works though, I like the idea of higher CR and medium boost as opposed to super low CR and high boost as I think it, combined with some form of ignition control, would make for a much smoother engine package.

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Re: 16 Valve B202 engine rebuild 2011

Postby Mezzanine » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:10 pm

I think these are for a H turbo engine. Anybody ever run these in a B202?
The dish is shallower and smaller in diameter, bumping the C/R.

Thanks folks for the quality suggestions and feedback.


Hutch, by this comment, I think Dennis meant they came from a B201 engine... Should be a direct swap, just a different C/R.

Dennis, I know what you mean about the car identity crisis. my 99t is still struggling with one.

C
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Re: 16 Valve B202 engine rebuild 2011

Postby Jordan » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:51 am

Mezzanine wrote:
I think these are for a H turbo engine. Anybody ever run these in a B202?
The dish is shallower and smaller in diameter, bumping the C/R.

Thanks folks for the quality suggestions and feedback.


Hutch, by this comment, I think Dennis meant they came from a B201 engine... Should be a direct swap, just a different C/R.

Dennis, I know what you mean about the car identity crisis. my 99t is still struggling with one.

C


BTW, early c900s had B engines. I like your idea of slightly higher compression and better ignition. I thought my viggen was something like 10:1 compression. Even with EZK in my car, the off boost range was so much more drivable.

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Re: 16 Valve B202 engine rebuild 2011

Postby squaab99t » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:05 pm

Jordan wrote:
Mezzanine wrote:
I think these are for a H turbo engine. Anybody ever run these in a B202?
The dish is shallower and smaller in diameter, bumping the C/R.

Thanks folks for the quality suggestions and feedback.


Hutch, by this comment, I think Dennis meant they came from a B201 engine... Should be a direct swap, just a different C/R.

Dennis, I know what you mean about the car identity crisis. my 99t is still struggling with one.

C


BTW, early c900s had B engines. I like your idea of slightly higher compression and better ignition. I thought my viggen was something like 10:1 compression. Even with EZK in my car, the off boost range was so much more drivable.


After talking with Hans, they are all H blocks up to the NG900. And yes a hand full of B motors. I guess my question was using those pistons on a 16 valve head? I'll measure the dish difference, top of the piston to wrist pin, and calc the C/R delta. I think it will help off boost drivablity and with the standalone ECU I can control ignition very well.

I did some crude bending tests with the top ring and second ring. Clamped each ring in a bench vice cantilevered an inch. Clamped a visegrip 1/4 inch from the end and applied a bending load. Both snapped very quickly, maybe 15-20*. The top ring broke at the base on the vise. The second ring snapped 1/4 inch down were I placed the visegrip.
Conclusion, I believe both the top and second ring are cast iron which is no good for a force induction motor. Unfortunately I do not have a copy of the ring receipt, so I can not cross reference to see what I really have. I Might have some photos of the rebuild with a picture the box :dunno:
Either way time to move on and get the right stuff.

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Re: 16 Valve B202 engine rebuild 2011

Postby Geoff » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:58 pm

The H pistons should go right in to a 16v. The only difference is the dish for the CR. I seem to remember that MY85 16v engines used the same pistons that '84 900Ts (and '85 900T 8 valve H engines which were available outside the US) used. The '85 16v head has less volume in the dome than '86+ 16v heads, the volume in the '85 16v is similar to that as an 8v. Mongo put a later 16v head on his '85 900T at one point and the compression dropped and it wasn't as fun to drive.
The kind of dirty that doesn't wash off :eyebrows:

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Re: 16 Valve B202 engine rebuild 2011

Postby squaab99t » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:27 pm

Geoff wrote:The H pistons should go right in to a 16v. The only difference is the dish for the CR. I seem to remember that MY85 16v engines used the same pistons that '84 900Ts (and '85 900T 8 valve H engines which were available outside the US) used. The '85 16v head has less volume in the dome than '86+ 16v heads, the volume in the '85 16v is similar to that as an 8v. Mongo put a later 16v head on his '85 900T at one point and the compression dropped and it wasn't as fun to drive.


Sweet. That is the direction I will proceed. Drew and Mezz had the same conclusion, so from 3 separate sources. Unless you guys are in cahoots, I'm thinking I'm good to go. Off to the machine shop with cast iron block(s) and a credit card.

Thanks folks,
Dennis

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Re: 16 Valve B202 engine rebuild 2011

Postby squaab99t » Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:24 pm

Status update.
My friend Kevin help me do some cc of the cylinder, pistons, stock and T5 heads.
Also sent the block off to the machine shop to have it bored 1 over, mains and deck checked.
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99% alcohol isopropyl. Use alcohol in lieu of water because it wets better due to low surface tension. 25 cc glass burette. Must use glass because the alcohol will attack a plexiglass version.

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He also made a couple movies of the measuring process.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28852287@N05/6017928031/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28852287@N05/6017927427/in/photostream/

Stock head: 45.7cc
T5 head: 45.1cc
Both measured with BCP7ES plugs

99Sven hooked me up with some stock 1 over pistons, so I will be using those and not the 8V pistons. Maybe bump the C/R next project?


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